ultimatepsi: What is filk: in-group and out-group defintions

Kate Nineteen (

ultimatepsi) wrote,
@ 2009-04-24 11:30:00

Current location:	Waltham, MA
Current mood:	contemplative
Current music:	GRIGNR!
Entry tags:	ask lj, culture production, filk, fractured fandom, introspection, music, sci-fi fandom

What is filk: in-group and out-group defintions
The title of my roommate's recent post "Does this count as filk? I hope not." and one of the comments about it, have brought to my mind some very interesting questions about the definition of filk.

I think what filkers call filk and what non-filker sci-fi fans call filk are not always the same. If londo had posted his parody on a filk list, it's extremely unlikely that anyone would have said "that isn't good enough to be filk". In fact, if anyone did say that, they would be scolded by the rest of the community. It's almost inconceivable that anyone would claim that the parody in question, being written about The Eye of Argon, would be not considered filk based on it's content.

Moreover, this isn't the first time I've heard someone describe their stuff as "not good enough for filk". On the other hand, I've also heard a number of sci-fi fans who enjoy geeky music say that they don't like filk because "it isn't good quality". Fandom values both technical competence and inclusion. Filkers generally seem to think that a fannish music community should support anyone who wants to perform, even the incompetent. (Which isn't to say that filker don't encourage people to improve their musical skills.) Other fans prefer to get their geek music fix from professional musicians. However, even those fans who listen to individual filk artists typically won't show up a filk con for the concerts. Why? I wonder.

Aside from the quality vs inclusion issues, self-identified filkers tend to define filk by the community, where as non-filker fans seem to think of it more a genre and define it by content. Some of the definitions of filk I hear a lot from filkers are: "the music of science fiction fandom" and "what filkers play and/or write" (which seems to reflect a focus on community). Non-filkers seem much more likely to say that filk is "parodies" or "music about science fiction and fantasy" (about a topic rather than of a community).

Relatedly, in the discussions surrounding filk programming at general conventions, I've noticed an increasing amount of geeky music (nerdcore, video game bands, etc) made by people who don't consider themselves filkers. There have always been some musicians who write stuff that fits the content of filk without being involved with the community (Tom Lehrer, Weird Al), but the number seems to be expanding rapidly. I think this is just one reflection of the increasing diversity of culture that the internet has been enabling.

However, it is unclear to me why few of the new geek musicians are involved with the filk community. Do they not know about it? Are they judging it to be for amateurs? Do they not feel included, perhaps based on musical style, or not directly sci-fi content or some other factor? Do they not want to share performance space? Is there some other cultural factor that creates a divide?

Also, given that there is a division between filkers and musically oriented sci-fi fans, should we try to change that? I think it'd would be better to have a cohesive, inclusive community, but maybe others disagree.

I've been putting so much thought into this, because lately, I've been volunteering to organize filk programming at general sci-fi conventions. I'd like to do that in a why that provides value for both sides of border around "filk community" and brings fans together. I'd really like hear all of your input, especially those of you who are musicians in sci-fi fandom, but don't identify as filkers. What do you think of as the defining and non-defining characteristics of filk? Why are you involved or not in the community? Also, should I cross post this to filk?

(48 comments) - (Post a new comment)

pezzonovante
2009-04-24 07:37 pm UTC (link)

However, it is unclear to me why few of the new geek musicians are involved with the filk community. Do they not know about it? Are they judging it to be for amateurs? Do they not feel included, perhaps based on musical style, or not directly sci-fi content or some other factor? Do they not want to share performance space? Is there some other cultural factor that creates a divide?

I think that a great case study in this question would be the reaction to Luke Ski being the filk guest of honor at Arisia.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	ultimatepsi 2009-04-24 07:40 pm UTC (link)
	That is one of the incidents that help form the thought expressed in this post. I don't however have all the information. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	etherial 2009-04-24 07:42 pm UTC (link)
	Fucking Luke Ski. I hope he dies in a fire. That was my reaction to him being the Filk Guest of Honor. Fucking Luke Ski... (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

mike46
2009-04-26 09:15 pm UTC (link)

I have to say that hoping someone dies in a fire is an **interesting** way of expressing your dislike of someone's musical style, talent/lack of, or whatever it is about him you don't like. As a long time listener to filk and new performer, one of the things about filk that I liked was the openness of most people I've met to different styles, types, etc of music that people bring to the genre, community or whatever you like to think of filk as being.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	etherial 2009-04-26 09:19 pm UTC (link)
	Let me put it this way: I'm not confident enough in his abilities to be sure that he was deliberately trying to ruin the '07 Rocky Preshow, but damn, I have trouble imagining something being that bad by accident. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	londo 2009-04-27 04:23 am UTC (link)
	Luke Ski is generally not that great, but that particular event was way worse than I ever expected him to be. I would not consider him filk, and I would definitely not consider that performance filklike at all. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	siderea 2009-04-27 05:24 am UTC (link)
	I suspect I may regret asking, but what about Luke Ski? (I mean, I was there and all, but bugged out of the masquerade half-time show, so never heard him.) (Oh, hi, I followed londo in from his journal.) Edited at 2009-04-27 05:25 am UTC (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

etherial
2009-04-27 07:37 am UTC (link)

As Filk GoH, he was part of the Rocky Preshow and...sucked horribly. He was a total mood-killer. He droned on and on performing stuff nobody seemed to like and generally just making something that usually ends up being just a little too long take for-fucking-ever. I vaguely remember actually casting about for to throw things at him to get him off the stage. It was the first, and until this thread, last I'd heard of him.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	juldea 2009-04-24 09:52 pm UTC (link)
	I was anti-Luke-Ski for that, but I also was/am quite biased for certain icon-related reasons... (Reply to this) (Parent)

	londo 2009-04-24 08:39 pm UTC (link)
	...should I cross post this to filk? I won't complain about the additional exposure - it's an unlocked post for a reason. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	ultimatepsi 2009-04-26 02:32 pm UTC (link)
	It's been cross-posted here. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	marmota 2009-04-24 09:20 pm UTC (link)
	This might be more of a dodge than a fix, but if you're trying to organize filk for a more general purpose convention, calling it a 'musical media' track (or something along those lines) could work as a more catch-all descriptor... and anyone thereby involved can call what they do 'filk' or not at their own discretion? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	ultimatepsi 2009-04-26 02:32 pm UTC (link)
	That is a reasonable notion, but I worry about alienating the filkers by doing it. I've started suggesting it as a notion to see what the reactions are. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	paradoox 2009-04-26 03:14 pm UTC (link)
	I think the general consensus after the Arisia Luke Ski incident was it would have been better if he was called the Musial Guest of Honor. Which part of the reason why SJTucker is called the Musical Guest of Honor this year. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	orawnzva 2009-04-27 03:58 pm UTC (link)
	Any time a musical guest participates in filk programming and everyone has a good time, everyone wins, including the "filk community" per se, whatever the guest is called. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	sirroxton 2009-04-25 01:59 am UTC (link)
	My personal exposure to filk has created an association to awkward teens with a highly underdeveloped sense of social embarrassment. I hope that doesn't sound unhelpful, but if you're wondering about people's reaction to the label, I think that's a common view. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	ultimatepsi 2009-04-25 02:09 pm UTC (link)
	That's curious. I tend to think of filkers as being older than me for the most part. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	sirroxton 2009-04-25 10:26 pm UTC (link)
	Fair enough. I've heard some good filk, but I guess the bad won out. Bad filk produces two emotions: the mortification of listening to a tone deaf acquaintance sing his heart out in public, and the disdain for someone who unjustly thinks himself terribly clever. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	sirroxton 2009-04-25 10:29 pm UTC (link)
	I guess I have more tolerance for bad folk music, because the singer is trying to convey a personal story instead of trying to showcase his wit. (There's a special place in my heart for Don White.) (Reply to this) (Parent)

ratatosk
2009-04-26 05:21 am UTC (link)

Filk to me has a lot to do with style and not so much with content. I think you could teach a computer to distinguish filk from other folk music without teaching it English. No, I don't know enough to describe the differences.

Filk also has some PR problems: it's really easy for it to come off as music about things I know nothing about, performed in a style that annoys me, and in a context where it seems like people are just randomly breaking into song (e.g. filk rooms). I'm not saying perceive it that way all the time, just that those are real issue generally.

For my part it's hard to get me excited about music that is neither really good, or participatory. Concerts with singers pretty much never count as either from my point of view. Filk rooms often fail on both counts too.

As to being a musician and an SF fan, well, I'm a horn player, so I and the filk community have no particular reason to talk to each other. Worse still, it takes me a moment to think to include guitarists in my mental category of "musician", since I default to "musician" meaning "someone who plays an orchestral instrument" and everyone else just getting some particular word like "guitar player" or whatever.

I might come back to this when I'm more awake.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

ldwheeler
2009-04-26 06:01 pm UTC (link)

I would note that I've heard violin, flute, dulcimer, trumpet, trombone and several other instruments in filk circles/contexts. (I'm curious as to why you think a horn would be unwelcome in a filk context.)

The one statement you've made that I find curious is about there being a lack of "participatory" music in filk. Whereas filk's basic ethos or ethic if you will, at its core, is all about participation -- about the seasoned performers (and, quite frankly, many of the most seasoned musicians I've heard have been in filk contexts) and the amateurs alike taking their turns in the circle, supporting/encouraging one another, harmonizing, etc. So I'm just curious as to where that perception comes from, or if I'm misunderstanding you. Thanks.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

siderea
2009-04-27 05:52 am UTC (link)

I would note that I've heard violin, flute, dulcimer, trumpet, trombone and several other instruments in filk circles/contexts.

I've also seen cats at dog shows; doesn't mean they had much to do there.

The one statement you've made that I find curious is about there being a lack of "participatory" music in filk.

Speaking as an enduring fan of filk music and filksings, and as a non-filker musician, you're exemplifying two of the big blind-spots of the filk community.

1) Filk circles are the least participatory musical activity that I go to that isn't just frankly a concert where you're supposed to shut up and listen. Filkers have an astonishingly low bar for what qualifies as "participatory": you think turn-taking is participatory. Participatory to most instrumentalists (and many singers) is almost the opposite of turn-taking. A filk circles are, as you say, all about taking turns -- practical upshot being that a filk circle involves something like 90% listening to other people, and 10% music making, per participant. Obviously this varies with how much singing along is customary/welcome for a given circle.

Contrast this to going to a jam, or a seisun, or a sight read, or just a workshop, where the expectation isn't turn-taking, but to play in 100% of the time. Most musicians are accustomed to "participatory" music activities being much, much more participatory than filk circles. This can, at the least, cause problems of violated expectations ("I tuned the harp for this?"), but more generally may strike some musicians as just boring.

I'm not saying this is a problem in need of fixing, mind you; there's good reasons for filk circles to go right on being as they are! Just it's important to know where other people are coming from.

2) You know, filk's a vocal genre. Sure, non-singing instrumentalists are "welcome" to show up. But they can find themselves with a lot less to do. When the nice horn player tells you "I'm a horn player, so I and the filk community have no particular reason to talk to each other", you should pay attention. He's telling you something about what it's like to be an instrumentalist at a filk sing, and I'm pretty sure he's not the only one that feels that way. If filk sings aren't terribly participatory in comparison with non-fannish musical activities, they're even less participatory for the strictly-instrumentalists.

Again, that's not something filkers need to run out and change. The fact that filk is a genre of song is a perfectly fine thing. But, again, it's important to understand where the people are coming from, and not just dismiss the reality of their experience, if you want to understand them or get along with them.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

ldwheeler
2009-04-27 06:26 am UTC (link)

I see your point, and I acknowledge that may have been your, and others', experience in filk contexts -- but I hope you realize that it's not universal. (And I should acknowledge straight-up that I'm not an instrumentalist myself, so take this with a grain or two of salt.)

A few weeks ago, I was at FilKONtario, and in the filk circle we had a violinist, a flutist, a dulcimerist, a full rock band, several guitarists, etc. And it wasn't a case that, as you imply, OK, everyone shuts up until it's your "turn." The violinist probably played on about half the songs in the evening, for instance -- adding accents and improvisations and so forth as she desired. She wasn't asked to, or asked not to -- she just did it, and everybody liked it. That's not uncommon, from my observation. Indeed, it's common in most of the filk circles I've attended (note the emphasis -- it may be different in your neck of the woods) -- for people to welcome any and all musicians in the room to jump in.

In other words, who says you have to sit quietly until it's your "turn?" I've almost never seen that -- almost every filk circle I've been in has had a lot of harmonizing, improvisation, and so forth. It's not uncommon to have someone start a song, and, by the end of it, have 14 guitarists, two or three flutists and a dulcimerist or harpist or two have joined the song. I realize this might not be quite what you meant. But this whole sense that, to paraprhase, "instrumentalists are discouraged from participating except when it's their 'turn'," is foreign to me.

So at any rate, I'm not disputing or discounting your experiences -- just suggesting that they may be more regional in nature, or, at any rate, may not be as widespread within filk in general as you think.

Heh -- I just reread your comment, and just noticed that you do acknowledge that: Obviously this varies with how much singing along is customary/welcome for a given circle. It just happens that in the vast majority of filk circles I've been in, it's completely welcome, customary and, I think, encouraged. (At FKO, I think I sang a total of six songs on official "turns" -- but I think I harmonized on about 80 or 90. And so, it seems, did most people. The general rule in the circles I've attended seems to be "if you know the song, feel free to join in.")

(I realize there are significant regional differences in filk-circle protocols. My region tends to be the Northeast-Midwest; my primary cons are FKO, OVFF and Confluence, though I do plan to be at Concertino this year.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

siderea
2009-04-27 06:58 am UTC (link)

But this whole sense that, to paraprhase, "instrumentalists are discouraged from participating except when it's their 'turn'," is foreign to me.

Nope, not quite right on the paraphrase. I don't think I said that. To the extent I said something specific about instrumentalists, it's not that anybody's discouraging them, but they're in a situation a lot like a vegetarian being welcome to a barbeque.

my primary cons are FKO, OVFF and Confluence, though I do plan to be at Concertino this year.

Dude, you're talking about filk conventions. You do realize, right, that nobody who isn't already into filk is ever going to see what goes on at a filk convention, right? And that filk conventions are very different than the sort of general SF con we're talking about, at which there even are non-filker musicians passing through to have an opinion one way or another?

The factor that, in my experience, causes the level of participation-welcome to fluctuate the most is average level of ability. In circles where the ability level is low -- where many singers aren't very authoritative in pitch, rhythm, or just volume -- joining in is somewhere between not possible (we're not actually in a key that the keyboardist will ever find) and hostile (the singer is so precarious they are easily blown away.) There needs to be a sense that the default/normal singer in the circle is actually leading the song for people to feel it's OK to join it.

And having a lower expertise level is precisely one of the big differences between a filk con and a con with filk programming, where much less dedicated people will be coming to try it out, etc. (There are others.)

It's not uncommon to have someone start a song, and, by the end of it, have 14 guitarists, two or three flutists and a dulcimerist or harpist or two have joined the song. I realize this might not be quite what you meant.

I think we're talking about the same thing, but... notice the lack of horn on that list. What you describe is reasonably typical of a filk circle, instrument-wise: folk music instruments. Sure, somebody could bring a french horn, a saxophone, a glockenspiel, an electric guitar, a hurdy-gurdy. But (1) they have to figure out how to play it in a way completely outside the idiom they've studied on it, to be able to join in in a filk sing and (2) think about what happens to your filk sing if they show up in any numbers. Sure, having a trumpet is OK; is having five? Think about what that would sound like. Think about what it would be like to sing with that, or to lead a song with that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

ldwheeler
2009-04-27 07:15 am UTC (link)

Point taken -- and you're right; it's probably different at a filkcon in which the average level of experience, expertise and just general savvy in reading the room (including determining what is aesthetically workable sonically) is higher than at a gencon. And so it's more likely that a song can evolve into a multiparticipant jam that works well because people's skill levels (and experience playing with one another) has evolved to the point where they can read one another musically well. (Confluence, I should note, is a gencon rather than a filkcon -- but, as I've noted elsewhere, it attracts enough filkers (due to the program that

mrgoodwraith regularly puts together) that it might as well be one.)

Point taken about the horns, too -- particularly multiple ones. And yeah -- though I'll go on record as saying that any musician who so desires is welcome to jump in on any of my silly a capella pieces, I might not care to be accompanied by a tuba. So yes -- I can see how a given musician may feel uninclined to take part in a filk circle, though I certainly hope that they aren't getting the vibe that they're unwelcome. (I personally would love to hear more diversity in style and, in fact, idiom, within filk. I am happy to note its musical range (in genre, anyway) as a scene, embracing, for example, material from the torch-jazz of Mary Crowell to the hip-hop of Luke Ski to the classic-rock stylings of Toyboat ... but I realize that, by the very nature of the setting, some things work better (and worse) in circles than others.

Thanks for being patient with my responses -- I think we were talking around each other for awhile. *smiles*

(Reply to this) (Parent)

ultimatepsi
2009-04-27 12:56 pm UTC (link)

Thank you for pointing this out. Interestingly, I've never seen a filk jam at a general convention, despite the high attendance and energy level of the one I went to at OVFF. I'd like to change the fact that filk seems to be alienating some musicians, at least as much as is possible without giving up the principles of inclusion and support for new performers. Being some one drawn to filk by the lyrics might mean that I wouldn't go to an instrumental filk circle, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try having one.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	poltr1 2009-04-27 12:51 am UTC (link)
	FWIW, I'm not a guitarist, and probably never will be. I play woodwinds (flute, clarinet, bass clarinet, and saxophones) and keyboards. And I consider myself a filker. There are other orchestral instrument players in the filk community. So why are you and filk choosing to remain mutually exclusive? Enquiring minds want to know. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Discuss this in the larger community. dhs 2009-04-26 11:46 am UTC (link)
	should I cross post this to [info]filk? It seems an obvious place for a broader consideration of this than your friends list. And it does seem to me (from my perspective looking in from the fringes of the filk community) that this is a valuable topic to discuss. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Discuss this in the larger community. ultimatepsi 2009-04-26 02:36 pm UTC (link)
	So yeah, I did cross-post here. Interestingly, the previous post to filk was on the same general topic. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Grignr?

filkertom
2009-04-26 02:15 pm UTC (link)

Hey there! I found this thread from this thread, and I posted a comment there that may (or may not) shed some light on at least part of this.

There's also the fact that, yes, some things are not good enough for filk... but that has more to do with technique, lyrical or otherwise, than subject matter. The Eye of Argon thing? Filk. Amusing, too.

Edited at 2009-04-26 02:16 pm UTC

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Grignr? londo 2009-04-27 05:05 am UTC (link)
	...somewhere in between being highly embarrassed and ridiculously pleased is a word that describes my reaction to learning from my roommate that Tom Smith has read my work, and liked it. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Grignr? filkertom 2009-04-29 08:05 pm UTC (link)
	Tee hee. ;) (Reply to this) (Parent)

For good, or for awesome

orawnzva
2009-04-26 08:04 pm UTC (link)

Hmm, I see good comments on this topic on three different original entries, where should I add mine...?

I think that making this conversation about the definition of the word "filk" is a preoccupation peculiar to those of us who identify as filkers, and potentially a distraction from the real question, which is: Should we try to get people who think of themselves as filkers and people who don't into (some of) the same events at conventions to enjoy music together, can we, and how? Certainly, that is the question you and I will need to consider in our capacity as organizers of "filk" programming for dionysian-type gencons.

I'm thinking of a Homestar Runner sketch which asks us whether we will use our powers "for good, or for awesome?". Without ever sitting down and deciding, the filk community has clearly demonstrated a collective will to nurture both the good and the awesome, but first-tier filk recruiting at cons has tended to emphasize what I will call the good. Maybe we need to figure out how to do a "Filk 101 for Awesome" panel/performance/whatever it would be.

Anyway, good and awesome:

"Good" means being a welcoming and nurturing community — giving everyone the chance to sing, encouraging those who have been discouraged from singing in the past, singing songs that everyone knows so that everyone can sing along.

"Awesome" means producing a high-quality, high-energy musical experience for the listener. While we could use this term to refer to quality of performance, here I mean tit to explicitly acknowledge the (typical) genre/sound preferences of the current wave of younger fans. The same fen who aren't coming into filkrooms because they think filk isn't awesome enough are also not going to the symphony, so it's not just about virtuosity, it's also about beat and energy.

Good and awesome aren't opposed values, and many things are both. For example:

Good: people who have been told they can't sing who are given the encouragement they need to dare to sing again. Awesome: a confident voice that totally owns the audience. Both: Seanan McGuire.

Good: making our community accessible to the hearing-impaired in the face of the seemingly obvious fact that you have to be able to hear to enjoy music. Awesome: a performance that combines driving energy with deviously subtle wit. Both: Judi Miller.

Good: songs everyone can sing along to. Awesome: songs that rock. Both: "Rocket Ride".

This also isn't about the "good side" and the "awesome side" of musical fandom — the self-identified "filk community" explicitly acknowledges and nurtures both these values, and while there are points of tension, I think that the balance is good and that the center is holding. But, in terms of recruiting at-con, I think filk has tended to focus on — and become identified with — "the good" to the exclusion of "the awesome".

I think we should keep both doors open. Some people come to filk through the door of the good — they have a song to share, but they're not sure it's good enough, or if they're ready, and we tell them to just go ahead and sing it, and that's it's really great but here are a few tips... and some people come to fannish music (but less often to "filk" per se) through the door of the awesome — they see

filkertom or

s00j in concert as the musical guest at a convention and buy their CDs.

I love filk as a community, and I love fannish music as an art form, but I'm not hung up on "filk" as a brand name, or on the question of whether the term refers to fannish music generally or just to the self-defined community that calls itself that. What I'd like to see is more fen enjoying music together to the extent that that makes sense — I mean, if two groups genuinely don't like the same kind of music, getting them into a room together may not help. As filkers who are running music programming for general conventions, one good strategy might be to arrange the program so that it shows that the path through the door of the awesome leads to (what we would call) the open filk circle.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: For good, or for awesome etherial 2009-04-26 09:26 pm UTC (link)
	The same fen who aren't coming into filkrooms because they think filk isn't awesome enough are also not going to the symphony, so it's not just about virtuosity, it's also about beat and energy. It's a good thing that I abhor the word fen, or else I would be very annoyed at being painted with such a broad stroke. -Symphony Season Ticket Holder/Filk Hater (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: For good, or for awesome orawnzva 2009-04-26 09:55 pm UTC (link)
	Sorry. I think I'm right about the statistical trend, but I shouldn't have flung around a stereotype like that. On the other hand, do you think it's maybe possible to have this conversation (not just this particular instance, but the broader conversation about different shards of fandom) with fewer words like "abhor" and "hater"? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: For good, or for awesome

etherial
2009-04-26 10:12 pm UTC (link)

Hater was hyperbole, sure, but abhor is spot-on. The word "Fen" combines fandom's incessant need to feel better than everyone else with our incessant need to turn everything into a secret code. "Filk" also tends to exult exactly the same zeitgeist, combining it further with the elements I find least pleasant about folk music. See, you think I don't like filk because I have no taste. I don't like filk because I find it tasteless.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: For good, or for awesome

orawnzva
2009-04-26 10:39 pm UTC (link)

I don't presume to know why you don't like "filk", because I don't know what filk you've encountered. I haven't found filk tasteless — if I had, I wouldn't have become a part of that community. As for the use of words, every group of people that hang out together develops in-jokes and jargon. I didn't use the word "fen" in order to feel intellectually elite or superior or included in a club with a secret code, I used it because, in my vocabulary, that is what that word means, and based on a guess that it would be recognized as meaning that by many of the people who would be likely to comment on this post. Looks like I guessed wrong.

Also, groups of people who find it wonderful to get together often celebrate the very fact of their being a group of people who find it wonderful to get together. Yes, that often comes across as pointlessly self-absorbed and recursive to outsiders — I feel that way about sports fans. It's also totally human, and I do it too (and enjoy it a lot — hey, it's fun to be a social animal!), so I try not to make a stink about other people doing it except in cases where it's actively dangerous, such as nation-states.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: For good, or for awesome

ldwheeler
2009-04-27 04:07 am UTC (link)

(Here via

ultimatepsi's cross-post to

filk.)

An interesting response -- I never thought of "fen" as anything but an off-kilter pluralization of "fan," and never considered it as exclusionary. I suppose any label -- any noun, since all nouns are labels of a sort -- can be seen as somehow exclusionary, but I suppose I've never thought of it that way.

On to your comments about filk:

Filk, like most (all?) things, clearly isn't for everybody, for various reasons, though the reasons you give are vague enough to stir my curiosity ... such as what the elements are that you find least pleasant about folk music. (Which is kind of a big umbrella, covering everything from blues to Celtic to Cajun to confessional-singer-songwriter to klezmer, etc., etc.) But what really piques my interest is your classification of filk as "tasteless." I understant that you're giving your honest impression, but I would be curious as to what you mean by it -- what exactly you find tasteless about it? Its subject matter (which is pretty wide and diverse)? Its instrumentation (the same applies)? The way that amateurs and beginners are encouraged to contribute to the same degree as the seasoned performers/songwriters? The song structure/composition?

As

orawnzva notes elsewhere on this thread, I don't know what filk you've encountered or how much exposure you've had. I do know that often we build impressions based on limited exposure to a phenomenon. So sometimes, for instance, someone may wander in to a filkroom that has a little more than its share of people singing overly long, morose, off-key songs about dead fairies and then walk away with the impression that that it filk. It seems that most "outside" impressions of filk tend to betray a limited exposure ... since there are very few unifying characteristics of the songs heard in filk. The composition/song structure is diverse and wide, as are the subject matter, the instrumentation, the skill level of practitioners, the preferred method of singing, etc. (I myself have limited tolerance for the "hymnal" style of group filksing, which is popular in some regions and among some segments of filkers.) My point is, I find it difficult to make much of any blanket statements about filk (either "tasteless" or, for that matter, "tasteful") because it's so broad and diverse as to defy any attempt at categorization. I've heard hip-hop, torch jazz and Saint-Saens in filk circles, sometimes the same circle.

Not trying to be confrontational -- I'm just curious as to what you particularly find "tasteless" about filk and how much data went into forming that opinion. Thanks ...

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: For good, or for awesome

ultimatepsi
2009-04-27 12:56 am UTC (link)

Aside for the fact that my intuitive sense of how to apply the words "good" and "awesome" to the two concepts you describe is reversed from yours, I agree a lot with what you're saying. I would like to be able to show some of the awesome to general con-goers, even if it doesn't bring them into the filk community, just because introducing people to things they will enjoy is important to me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	Re: For good, or for awesome thorintatge 2009-04-27 03:27 am UTC (link)
	Thanks for making this lengthy and thoughtful post. I agree! (Reply to this) (Parent)

siderea
2009-04-27 06:29 am UTC (link)

Filk-fan, musician, effectively not a filker.

Some of the definitions of filk I hear a lot from filkers are: "the music of science fiction fandom" and "what filkers play and/or write" (which seems to reflect a focus on community). Non-filkers seem much more likely to say that filk is "parodies" or "music about science fiction and fantasy" (about a topic rather than of a community).

In this case, I think the self-identified filkers are Just Wrong. For one thing, I've been thinking "filk is what filkers sing" is a cop-out for the last 20 or so years. Further, there's some complaining that this has diluted the genre and what made it interesting to non-filkers. For another, filk used (like, in the 1970s) to truly be the music of the SF fandom community; it hasn't been for a really long time. It's become very insular, music of the SF fandom filk community. It is not to my knowledge general seen as "our music" by the rest of fandom, it doesn't speak to most of fandom, there's no sense that it's an expression of fandom-as-a-whole's musical culture, the way I gather it once was. It's no longer a musical vernacular; it's a specialist activity for those who are into that sort of thing.

Sometime (I'm guessing in the 1980s?) filk and popular musical tastes diverged. Through the 1960s and 1970s, folk music was wildly popular in the general public. It's no surprise that filk is musically descended from singer-songwriter folk. That's what fans were hearing on their car radios. And no less than K/S slashers appropriating Trek to write porn or today's vidders using youtube to share their mashups from TV show footage, filkers were doing with the popular music of the time what fen always did: take popular media and remake them into their own. This is that whole "Textual Poachers" thing.

But filk became its own stylistic genre -- that's part of what I like about it! -- and as popular music shifted stylistically, filk stopped representing that textual poachers approach to music. It was still doing it with fiction and science news, of course. But the music was stylistically set. And in that way, it stopped having the same relationship it once did to music-making and fannish music audiences. It wasn't allusive to or commenting upon what fans were hearing in popular culture.

So, in summary, there was a time when it may have been accurate to describe "filk" as "the music of the SF fandom community", but it's no longer true. It is true to describe it as an authentic expression of fannish culture, a genre of music which arose out of fandom. But the term as used does not encompass music or musical practices outside that genre, within fandom.

Relatedly, in the discussions surrounding filk programming at general conventions, I've noticed an increasing amount of geeky music (nerdcore, video game bands, etc) made by people who don't consider themselves filkers. [...] However, it is unclear to me why few of the new geek musicians are involved with the filk community.

Uh... they're ensembles. Filk is no place for ensemble music making. It's entirely organized around a soloist + singalong presumption. What filk ensembles there are, are something that happen away from filk activities at cons, except for concerts.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

ldwheeler
2009-04-27 07:25 am UTC (link)

But the music was stylistically set. And in that way, it stopped having the same relationship it once did to music-making and fannish music audiences. It wasn't allusive to or commenting upon what fans were hearing in popular culture.

That's probably true to a large degree -- though, I think, there has been change over the past decade; filk doesn't seem quite as married to folk stylings as it used to be. (Though, as noted in our other exchange, the logistics and sonic realities of a filkroom require that to a certain extent.) Ookla the Mok, for example, brought a rock aesthetic with them into filk. (Though, admittedly, much of their songs lend themselves to folk stylings and generally are sung that way in circle -- though when Ookla takes a concert stage, it's a whole 'nother thing.) They're hardly the only ones doing that -- I had the pleasure to hear Toyboat at the last couple cons I've attended. (I particularly enjoy their bar-band attack on "Banned From Argo.")

So yah, you're right in that filk hasn't been a musical mirror to popular culture for some time -- though I don't think it's remained trapped in amber in a Folk-Revival styling, either. Obviously, this varies from performer to performer, region to region.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

ldwheeler
2009-04-27 07:29 am UTC (link)

Filk is no place for ensemble music making.

There are exceptions, of course: Sassafrass, for example, generally sang as an ensemble in the filk circles at last year's Confluence. And a number of groups -- admittedly, small groups of three or so members, like Urban Tapestry -- often play as a unit in circles. Others can probably give other examples. Though I acknowledge that, by and large, the soloist paradigm is more common.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	ultimatepsi 2009-04-27 01:15 pm UTC (link)
	Again, thank you for your insights. If "filk" is no longer the "music of SF fandom", do you think we should try to change the term's usage or coin another word for "the music of SF fandom"? (Reply to this) (Parent)

phillip2637
2009-04-27 05:20 pm UTC (link)

I'd be more convinced if I were aware of groups of fans getting together to create music for each other outside the filk umbrella. Then I would be worried that filk wasn't living up to its implied mandate (which I see, at least in part, as providing an outlet for musical creativity within F&SF fandom).

Other music -- at least the acts I know of -- that appeals to fandom generally, mostly comes from the producer/consumer model of commercial musical relationships.

An example: I saw Jonathan Coulton in concert last Friday and people happily sang along when he indicated that they should. I also have a concert DVD featuring Frank Hayes where he says (paraphrased), "If you want to sing along, I've learned there's not a damn thing I can do to stop you." It's the existence (or not) of that us/them split again.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

siderea
2009-04-27 06:39 pm UTC (link)

I'd be more convinced if I were aware of groups of fans getting together to create music for each other outside the filk umbrella.

My primary local con is Arisia, and usually there are at least two nights of live music dancing where the musicians are largely drawn from fandom or its fringes. Friday night is traditionally the Time Traveler's Ball, (which has pulled in the local SCA Renaissance dance band, a Victorian band, and a circus/steampunk band, off the top of my head), and then followed by a large and enthusiastic drum circle, with dancing; then there was a Steampunk Ball on Sunday this year which I think I entirely missed. This year, there was some concert or other mostly missed (DOH!) with a duo with nifty experimental musical instruments; past years have seen musical theater such as Star Wars: The Musical.

From my perspective, Arisia is bursting all over with live musical acts and activity, quite besides the filk track.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

phillip2637
2009-04-27 07:05 pm UTC (link)

Mmmm ... drum circle is an excellent example of a non-"me performer; you audience" type of experience. I remember one was done as a workshop at OVFF a few years ago, but you're right that it's not a common part of filk as I've seen it. (It's not that I dislike structured concerts or theater, but they're available everywhere.) Thinking about my experience of gencons, I guess I'd also add a Buffy sing-along I was once at as a shared musical event that wasn't filk.

One possible excuse :-) concerning the drum circle is that -- as with filk jams -- there are a limited number of people who feel qualified to lead. A thing I *like* about filk is its tendency to mutate according to the skills and interests of whoever comes along. Locally (Toronto), we were very much in the soloist or pre-arranged grouping model until about 16 months ago. Someone arrived in the area who was good at improvised accompaniment and guess what ... the filk get-togethers sound different now.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

ultimatepsi
2009-04-27 07:26 pm UTC (link)

So Arisia is also my primary local con, and you're right about there being a lot of music there that isn't part of the filk track. I've volunteered to run filk track at Arisia in 2010, which is a large part of why the relationship between non-filk fannish musicians and filkers is on my mind. I'd really like to build some bridges between these groups, because theoretically they have a lot in common. Toward this end, I've been wondering if it makes sense to have a "music" track that includes filk and non-filk items. What do you think?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

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